The Host
Julie Rovner
KFF Health News
Julie Rovner is chief Washington correspondent and host of KFF Health News’ weekly health policy news podcast, “What the Health?” A noted expert on health policy issues, Julie is the author of the critically praised reference book “Health Care Politics and Policy A to Z,” now in its third edition.
It’s not exactly news that our nation’s health care system is only a “system” in the most generous sense of the word and that no one entity is really in charge of it. Notwithstanding, there are some specific responsibilities that belong to the federal government, others that belong to the states, and still others that are shared between them. And sometimes people and programs fall through the cracks.
Speaking before a live audience on June 23 at Aspen Ideas: Health in Colorado, three former governors — one of whom also served as secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services — discussed what it would take to make the nation’s health care system run more smoothly.
The session, moderated by KFF Health News’ Julie Rovner, featured Democrat Kathleen Sebelius, a former governor of Kansas and HHS secretary under President Barack Obama; Republican Chris Sununu, former governor of New Hampshire; and Democrat Roy Cooper, former governor of North Carolina.
Panelists
Kathleen Sebelius
Former HHS secretary, former Kansas governor (D)
Chris Sununu
Former governor of New Hampshire (R)
Roy Cooper
Former governor of North Carolina (D)
Among the takeaways from the discussion:
- States — and the governors who lead them — are major “customers” of the federal health system. For instance, states run research universities with the aid of federal grants from the National Institutes of Health. States also run Medicaid, the joint state-federal program for those with low incomes and disabilities, through which most of the nation’s care for issues such as mental health and substance use disorders is funded. In fact, most federal money sent to states is for Medicaid.
- Cuts to Medicaid outlined in the House and Senate versions of President Donald Trump’s One Big Beautiful Bill Act would leave a huge hole in state budgets — one that the states, already facing budget constraints, would be unable to fill without making difficult choices. Notably, the bill does not make substantive cuts Medicare, a program that has a significant amount of excess spending and is expected to be insolvent within a decade.
- Controlling health care costs is a major concern for the future of the nation’s fragmented health care system, as is maintaining the health care workforce. More people without insurance coverage means higher overall costs. Pandemic burnout, immigration raids, and even the cost of college are putting pressure on a dwindling workforce. The federal government could do more to encourage medical professionals to go into primary care and rural health care.
Video of this episode is available here on YouTube.
Click to open the transcript
Transcript: Live From Aspen — Governors and an HHS Secretary Sound Off
[Editor’s note: This transcript was generated using both transcription software and a human’s light touch. It has been edited for style and clarity.]
Julie Rovner: Hello and welcome back to “What the Health?” I’m Julie Rovner, coming to you this week from the Aspen Ideas: Health conference in Aspen, Colorado. For this week’s podcast, we’re presenting a panel I moderated here with three former governors and one former HHS [Department of Health and Human Services] secretary, on how states and the federal government work together. This was taped on Monday, June 23, before a live audience. So, as we say, here we go.
Good morning. Thank you all for being here. I’m Julie Rovner. I’m chief Washington correspondent at KFF Health News, and I’m host of our weekly health news podcast — “What the Health?” — which we will do double duty this week for this panel. I am so thrilled to be here, and I welcome you all to Aspen Ideas: Health. As a journalist who’s covered health policy at the federal and state level for, let us just say, many years, I am super excited for this panel, which brings together those with experience in both.
I will start by introducing our panelists. Here on my left is Kathleen Sebelius. She served as HHS secretary during the Obama administration from 2009 to 2014, presiding over the passage and implementation of the Affordable Care Act. I hope you were all around last night for the wonderful panel where they were reminiscing. Prior to her tenure in Washington, Secretary Sebelius served two terms as Kansas’ elected insurance commissioner and two more as governor. Today she also consults on health policy and serves on several boards, including — full disclosure — that of my organization, KFF.
Next to her is Chris Sununu. He’s the former Republican governor of New Hampshire. Opposed, he was elected to a record four times before returning to the private sector. He’s also the only trained environmental engineer on this panel.
Finally, Roy Cooper is the former Democratic governor of North Carolina, where he served alongside Gov. Sununu. I’m sure they have many stories to tell. As a state lawmaker, Mr. Cooper wrote the state’s first children’s health insurance program in the 1980s and as governor championed the state’s somewhat belated Medicaid expansion in 2023, which we’ll also talk about. He’s currently teaching at the Harvard School of Public Health.
So here’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to chat with these guys for, I don’t know, 30, 40 minutes, and then we will open it to questions from the audience. There will be someone with microphones. I will let you know when it’s time. Just please make sure your question is a question.
So, I want to set the stage. It’s not exactly news that our nation’s health care system can only be called a system in the very most generous sense of that term. Nobody is really in charge of it. Notwithstanding that, there are some specific responsibilities that belong to the federal government, others that belong to the states and or counties and cities, and still others that are shared between them. Kathleen, you’re the one on this panel who has served as both governor and as HHS secretary, so I was hoping you could give us two or three minutes on what you see as the primary roles for health care at the federal level at HHS, and those for states. And then I’ll let the rest of you weigh in.
Kathleen Sebelius: Well, good morning, everybody, and thanks, Julie, for moderating. It’s lovely to be with my colleagues. That’s one of my former lives, as governor, so it’s great to be with governor colleagues. And just to make it clear, we’re not trying to gang up on Chris Sununu. Alex Azar, former HHS secretary in the first Trump administration, was supposed to be here today and had a family health issue, so he couldn’t join us. So it was supposed to be a little more balanced just to—
Chris Sununu: My conservative lifeline has abandoned me, and he’ll buy me dinner in D.C. next time I’m in town.
Sebelius: So, as Julie said, I think the health system, if you want to call it that, is definitely interrelated. And I think it’s one of the reasons that a lot of HHS secretaries have actually been governors, because we’re customers, if you will, of the federal health system. But just to break down a couple of categories: I was the elected insurance commissioner, which is an unusual spot. Only 11 states elect an insurance commissioner. Most are appointed as part of a governor’s Cabinet, but insurance is an over $3 trillion-a-year industry, still regulated at the state level. It’s the only multitrillion-dollar industry that there is no federal insurance regulator, and it still has a lot of control over health issues at the state level. The insurance commissioners regulate the marketplace plans. They look out for every company selling private insurance. They regulate Medicare supplemental plans. They’re very involved in consumer protection issues for insurance. And that’s all at the state level.
Then the governor is clearly in charge of health at the state level. Runs the state employee plan in every state, which often is the largest insurance pool. I don’t know about in North Carolina or New Hampshire, but it certainly was in Kansas. Runs Medicaid, a huge health program. Is in charge of mental health, of the whole issues around the opioid crisis and drug issues. So a broad swath. In charge of prison health and corrections. A lot of health issues at the state level. And then you get to HHS, which is an agency that probably interacts more with states than any other Cabinet agency. I wrote down some of these numbers just so I wasn’t making them up off the top of my head, but 69% of all federal grants to states are Medicaid, and HHS transfers more money to state governments than all the other domestic agencies put together.
So it’s largely Medicaid, but it also is mental health block grants. It’s all the children and families programs. It’s Head Start. It’s agencies on aging. There’s a real interaction. So governors are often good customers, if you will, of HHS. They need to be intertwined. They need to know what’s going on, what grants are on the table. Runs the whole Indian Health Service. A number of us had tribes in our states. So there is a lot of interaction. And even though I wasn’t able to quickly quantify the number, the other thing — and it’s become more apparent with the cuts on the table — is states run universities, which rely on research grants from the federal government.
So the recently announced NIH [National Institutes of Health] cuts have huge implications in Kansas. We have three major universities, which are losing hundreds of millions of dollars in research projects. But that’s gone on all over the country. So there is a lot of interaction between the state and federal government. And as I say, with the insurance commissioner, we had to build an office at HHS to regulate the marketplace, because there were no federal regulators. So I brought in a lot of my former colleagues who had been in insurance departments around the country, to help set up that regulatory system and that oversight.
Rovner: So I would like to ask the two former governors who’ve not been HHS secretaries, if you can, to give us an example of cooperation between the federal government and state government on health care that worked really well and an example of one that maybe didn’t work so well.
Sununu: So I would argue they don’t work well more than they work well, unfortunately. So a big issue I think, across the entire country, is rural access to care, right? So a lot of these grants — and the secretary’s right — a lot of the grants that come in through Medicaid, they’ll go to population centers and population health. That’s really, really important aspects. But rural access to care, where you talk about mental health, the opioid crisis, that’s really where so many folks get left out of the mix. We went down and I inherited — I don’t want to say “inherited” — New Hampshire was at the tip of the spear for the drug crisis, right? The opioid crisis, 2017, we had the second-highest death rate in the country, and we realized the overdose rate, the death rate, was four times higher in rural New Hampshire than our inner cities, right? Four times. Why? It wasn’t that — it’s because nobody was putting services out there.
Because it’s so much easier to put the services in the city. So a good example is, we went down to D.C. We worked with, at the time, Secretary Azar, the head of CMS —CMS is the center of Medicaid services and Medicare services, that’s really the overseer of these massive, massive programs — to get some flexibility with the grants to be able to do a little more with our dollars and create a hub-and-spoke system for rural access to care. And that worked really, really, really well. And I’m not here to tout [President Donald] Trump or anything, but at the time the Trump administration really got that and it worked well.
But I would say, more often than not, if you want something done a little different — we call them [Section] 1115 waivers, not to get wonky — you want to try something, the challenge isn’t that D.C. won’t let you do it. The challenge is it can take forever to get it done. It takes six months for my team to put together an 1115 application and then a year and a half sometimes for Washington to decide, after a hundred lawyers look at it, whether they’ll allow you to do it. So I would always argue, at the base of all this, is — Gov. Cooper, at the time, and his team, they know what North Carolina needs in terms of health care, specialized services, better than Washington, right? Or Mississippi. Or New Hampshire. The states know. They’re on the ground.
And my argument has always been: The best thing Washington can do if you want to save money and get better outcomes in health care, go more to a block-grant-type system. I know people don’t like to hear that, but let the states who are on the ground have more flexibility with those Medicaid dollars, create the efficiency at a localized level, where the patient interactions there with a — because again, I had an opioid crisis. Maybe there’s a huge mental health crisis in North Carolina. Maybe there’s an acute-care crisis in urban populations in California. Let them have flexibility and the ability to make more immediate returns on that. And so that’s why I say more often than not, it doesn’t work, because of the time delay. The bureaucracy, the lawyers. No offense to the — well, I don’t care if you take offense. But the lawyers in the room, the lawyers that get a hold of this thing and then give you a hundred reasons why it can’t happen.
And then the last thing I’ll throw out there is billing codes. Do you know there’s 10,000 Medicaid billing codes? Trying to ask a small nonprofit who’s providing local health care services and a volunteer to understand 10,000 Medicaid billing codes, and what happens? Often it’s not nefarious, but they get them wrong and then it comes back and it goes back and forth and the cash gets held up because of Washington, as opposed to just having a localized, We have our problem, let’s fix it on the ground, and move forward and get the help they need. So my challenge is always with the bureaucracy and slowing things down more than anything.
Rovner: Gov. Cooper.
Roy Cooper: Glad to be with you, Julie, and I worked closely with Gov. Sununu. We served as governors at the same time, and glad to have then-Gov. Sibelius, working with her when I was attorney general of North Carolina. I was an OK governor, but I’ve got the greatest first lady in the history of North Carolina with my wife, Kristin, who’s with us today. And thank you for all the work that you did. Somebody asked me what I miss most about being governor, and I said ingress and egress to sporting events was what I — because I had to learn to drive again.
So I look at this relationship as the federal government being a major funder to reach goals, but that states have the flexibility within those guidelines to deal with individual challenges that states have. And I don’t disagree completely with Gov. Sununu about how the waiver system is working, but when you get it working, it does some miracles.
For example, we got the first 1115 waiver in the country, to invest Medicaid dollars in social determinants of health. We called it Healthy Opportunities. And we’ve talked so much again and again about prevention and how investment there can make such a huge difference. We also got another waiver with hospital-directed payments to require all of our 99 hospitals to take part in a medical debt relief plan. When we expanded Medicaid in North Carolina, which we’ll talk a little bit about in a minute, more than 652,000 people were so grateful to have health insurance, but many of them owed so much money in medical debt that it prevented them from buying a house or getting a credit card and was causing all kinds of problems. So we got a waiver to put a requirement in the directed payments that hospitals are getting to make sure that we wipe off the books that $4 billion in medical debt in North Carolina, and that is happening as we speak.
People are getting the books cleared, all people who were on Medicaid and those making 350% or less of the federal poverty level. And then going forward, in order to continue to get the directed payments, they have to automatically enroll people at that income level into their programs for charity. So the cost of health care is being borne by those who can least afford it. And Medicaid has given us the opportunity and the flexibility with Medicaid has given us an opportunity to make those investments, and that’s why I worry, Governor, about what this bill that’s coming — you talk about red tape now. You look at red tape that’s coming if this legislation passes Congress right now. It’s going to make it 10 times worse.
So when you think about what Medicaid has done and this system with all of its faults — it has many — we’re at the lowest uninsured rate we’ve been right now. So that thus far has been a success. We’ve got a long way to go, but I think that we need to continue to work to make the investments angle toward prevention and keeping that symbiotic relationship between the federal and the state, make it smoother, eliminate red tape. But I think we’re making some progress.
Rovner: So let’s talk about Medicaid, which is kind of the elephant in the room right now since the Senate is presumably going to take up a bill that would make some significant cuts to the program, possibly as soon as this week. You’ve all three run Medicaid programs as governors. One of the Republican talking points on this bill is that what’s supposed to be a shared program, states are using loopholes and gimmicks to make the federal government pay more. What would happen if these cuts actually went through? Would states be able to just say: OK, you caught us. Now we’re just going to have to pay up?
Sebelius: Well, I can talk a little bit about it. So I live in a state, unfortunately, that has not expanded Medicaid. Kansas is one of the 10 states, although 40 states and the District of Columbia have used the Affordable Care Act provision to enroll slightly higher-income working folks in Medicaid. And it’s a huge federal-state partnership, with the federal government paying 90% of the premium cost of that additional population.
Rovner: And that was because the states didn’t think they had the money to expand otherwise?
Sebelius: That’s correct. So it was a generous offer, but after the Supreme Court it was a voluntary program. So there are still 10 states in the country, and what you can see easily looking at the map of the country is what the health outcomes are in the states that have not expanded. Expansion was available on Jan. 1, 2014. So we have a 10-year real-time experiment in health outcomes, in budget outcomes, in what has happened to the state economy. And we know a couple of things from a national level. More hospitals have closed, mostly rural hospitals, in states that have not expanded than the states that expanded. There are fairly significant health differences now. There were health differences before, but they have been accelerated.
There are more maternal-health deaths in states that have not expanded, not because the woman may not be eligible for Medicaid but because the hospital closes and now she’s 50 miles away from her birthing center and transportation issues and don’t have gas in the car and whatever. We are losing women having children, which is really shocking in the United States of America. So I think that not only is Medicaid a huge portion — I had a good friend who some of you may know, Brian Schweitzer, who was the former governor of Montana, and Brian used to say what a governor does is pretty easy. We medicate, we educate, we incarcerate, and the rest is chump change. You can find it in the couch, but it—
Sununu: Well, I disagree with that. Totally different discussion.
Sebelius: In terms of where the money is. Those are the big chunks of — and Medicaid in most state budgets, it’s a huge chunk of money. So when you talk about potentially $700 billion in cuts to Medicaid, it will blow up state budgets across the country, and it will leave, to Gov. Sununu and Gov. Cooper’s points, literally millions of people uninsured. The estimates out of the House bill — the Senate bill still hasn’t been scored — out of the House bill is 8- to 9 million people, but I think that’s likely to go up with a Senate bill.
Sununu: I would add, expanded Medicaid has been — we were an expanded Medicaid state. It’s been wonderful. Health outcomes are definitely a lot better. There’s a lot more access to services, and these are, again, the difference in the population, these are able-bodied working adults as opposed to the traditional Medicaid population that deal with either poverty issues or disability and all this other stuff. So it’s a 50-50 versus split on traditional versus 90-10. I don’t have a problem with changes. The way they’re doing it is awful. So as a state, if you want — they are really adamant about dropping it, and it would lead to bad outcomes, there’s no question — I would say, OK, do it over 10 years. We’re going to drop it 5% a year. Allow states to gradually come in, right? Allow states to alter their budgets. No state can alter their budget and take up — in California it might even be a trillion, hundreds of billions of dollars.
Sebelius: Yeah.
Sununu: So it’s so much money. So no state can do that. And so obviously you’d have a collapse of the system. It would be terrible to do that, and they’ve taken that off the table. The meta-scam piece is much more complicated, where states tax hospitals, match it with federal funds and send it back to hospitals in terms of uncompensated care. That’s a bad practice that everybody does, so we should keep it. I don’t know a better way to say it. And I say that because New Hampshire was the first one.
Sebelius: And it’s legal. It’s legal.
Sununu: We invented it in ’92. It’s legal. It’s fine. It’s become precedent in practice. It’s OK. And so we should keep doing that. And what they’re going to do is lower the amount that states can tax the hospitals and therefore lower the amount that we would get. And that, really, for us — I don’t know how other states use their dollars — we put a large portion of that back to hospitals for that uncompensated population, the ones that truly are unregistered. I don’t mind going after — we should get the cost at some point, right? You all owe $37 trillion, by the way. I hope you know that. So the savings have to come from somewhere, but Washington has to be smart about how to do it, what the actual outcomes are going to be, and how to ratchet it down so you’re not, again, throwing everybody off the cliff. And that’s what this bill would do. It would throw people right off a cliff.
Cooper: Yeah, I think the answer is absolutely no states can’t afford it. We governors have to balance budgets. The federal government obviously doesn’t. They just continue to raise the debt ceiling, problems in and of itself, but that’s where the funding should come from. I think there are a few billionaires we could tax a little bit more in order to create more funding to do the work that we need to do, but—
Sununu: There’s a basket at the door if you all want to drop something in on the way out.
Sebelius: A big basket.
Cooper: That, too. But I think that if we’re going to rely on the states — what’s happening now, I think, is a sneaky way to do this. I think they have understood that just openly and notoriously telling the states they have to pay more is not going to work and it’s not politically feasible. But what they have done is gone through the back door and created all of this red tape that’s going to end up with people being pushed off who are otherwise eligible. It’s going to end up with states having to make horrible choices, like with SNAP [Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program] benefits, for example.
In North Carolina, we’ll have a shortfall of about $700 million. Now with SNAP benefits, not only do you feed hungry people who need food, but there’s an economic benefit to our state. It’s like a $1.80 economic benefit generated from $1 of SNAP benefit. But I don’t see my Republican legislature putting in an extra $700 million in SNAP benefits in order to be able to feed hungry people. So the choices that states are going to make are going to be bad, because states are limited as to the decisions that they have to make. And this is going to be really tough, particularly if this Senate bill doesn’t change a whole lot. States are going to have a significant problem.
Sebelius: All I wanted to say is in addition to the Medicaid issue hitting a big portion of the lower-income working population is a corresponding Affordable Care Act hit that isn’t in the bill, because it’s a tax incentive that will expire at the end of this year. So not acting on the additional premium tax credits for the Affordable Care Act hits almost the same — in a state like Kansas, which has not expanded Medicaid, a lot of that population is in the marketplace plans with an enhanced tax credit. That goes away at the end of the year. So we’re looking at potentially 11 million people in states across this country.
And no governor has the ability to write a check and say: OK, I’m going to just provide, out of 100% state funds, I’ll help you buy your health insurance. But not having health insurance means you don’t get doctors paid, more hospitals go on —it has a ripple. People can’t take their meds. They can’t go to work. They have mental health issues. It is a really spiraling impact. And as Gov. Cooper and Sununu have said, we have the lowest rate of uninsured Americans right now that we’ve ever had in history, and that could change pretty dramatically.
Sununu: The only other piece I was going to bring up just to highlight the cowardice of Washington, D.C.: Why are they focusing on Medicaid, but no one wants to talk Medicare? Well, it’s easy because states, right? Because they can blame states. Well, we made changes, but it’s up to the states whether they want to keep it or not, right? And they’re going to blame the governors and blame what’s happening at the state level, whether expanded Medicaid survives or not. Meanwhile, it’s the crisis that they’re creating. Then you have Medicare, which, by the way, everyone agrees there’s massive waste and fraud and abuse, and that system needs a massive overhaul because that system, by the way, is going bankrupt, right? It’ll be insolvent in nine or 10 years, something like that, right?. But no one wants to talk about that piece, right?. But that’s an integral piece because both those left and right hands of Medicaid and Medicare drive the non-private sector of health care, right? Which creates not a competitive — we can get into the whole reducing competition in a free market in health care to actually get costs down.
But it’s really hard as a governor, I think, and I think I speak for all 50, to hear Washington talk about all these massive cuts they want to make to Medicaid, but they’re not going to touch Medicare, because that’s a federal program. And so they have to do both in some way, and they have to do it in a smart way, in an even-keeled way. It has to take place over time. It has to look at population health outcomes. But they don’t think like that. They just don’t. They look at top-line numbers, top-line issues. Maybe they’ll get to the bill in a few weeks. Maybe they won’t. They’ll be on vacation most of the summer. It’ll be very frustrating. Even if it passes in the Senate, it won’t even — what? September, maybe? Maybe they take it up in September?
Rovner: You don’t think they’re going to make it by July Fourth?
Sununu: The Senate might, but then they vacation. They’ve got to go on vacation. So isn’t that the frustration we all have? We have a major crisis here. Here’s an idea. Do your jobs.
Sebelius: Just a small addendum, too.
Sununu: Sorry. I’m frustrated.
Sebelius: Gov. Sununu, because he’s the baby of the group, if you can tell, and I’m part of the gray tsunami. Part of the reason Medicare is running out of money is at least when my parents were involved in Medicare, there were six or seven workers for every retiree. We’re now down to two. And I want to know those two workers. I got to tell you, I’m at a point in my life I’d like to bring them home with me, feed them on a regular basis, get them — but we have an aging country. We have many more people enrolled in Medicare right now than we have had in the past and fewer in the workforce. So the math, you’re right, is daunting going forward, but it isn’t, I would suggest, massive waste, fraud, and abuse as much as a changing demographic in our population.
Sununu: I was quoting [Rep. Nancy] Pelosi on that one. Sorry.
Rovner: I want to pick up on something. For those who were not there last night for the Affordable Care Act session, one of the things that no one brought up is that in the intervening 15 years since the Affordable Care Act passed, I think, every single one of the funding mechanisms to help offset the cost of the bill has been repealed by Congress. The individual mandate is gone. Most of the industry-specific taxes are gone. The Cadillac tax that was going to try and deter very generous health plans is gone. States don’t have this kind of opportunity to say, We’re g